The Dr Jo Show

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:22
Unknown
It's every mother's worst nightmare. Finding out that the child they've been carrying for the last 20 weeks is profoundly unwell, and is likely not going to survive.

00:00:08:22 - 00:00:25:06
Unknown
Hi, my name is Joanna Halle and I'm a professor of law and Rhodes Scholar, and I've also been a mother five times and I've never had this diagnosis. But today on the Doctor Joe Show, I'm going to speak to Steph and Brad, a very brave couple who've just been through this and are going to share their story.

00:00:26:21 - 00:00:43:07
Unknown
so probably the most common comment I get on my social media is that if a mother is pregnant with a baby who has a condition which is incompatible with life and that baby's going to die, then the most compassionate thing to do is to have an abortion for the baby, but also for the mother.

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Unknown
Now both of you have experienced having a baby who's incompatible with life. What would you say to that?

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Unknown
I think it's a it's a really challenging question because I think every parent wants the best for their child. And when you think about a woman in the place of being offered an abortion, like I was myself at 25, 24 weeks and five days pregnant, you're not going to take that decision lightly.

00:01:07:14 - 00:01:29:17
Unknown
There's a lot that goes into it. But I think you just want to fight for that child that's in you. And I think, that was what it was for Remi. We didn't know who he was, but we knew that we were going to fight for his life and we were going to accompany him. Whether that was going to be a short amount of life or a long life, we were going to be there

00:01:29:17 - 00:01:53:05
Unknown
as long as it was, because I really believe it doesn't matter how long you've lived, you, that value comes in and I'm going to switch over to Brad because he's really good at talking about this. I think about when you were talking, it was how, like when we received the news that if he did survive, which there was a very slim chance that he would, that he would probably be heavily disabled.

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Unknown
Not like mentally and physically. So my initial reaction to that was like, why is this happening to me? Like, why? Like even if my child is alive, why will

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Unknown
have such like strong disabilities, you know, like just to experience this moment of like, this is my loss in life was the kind of thing that gets dumped on you.

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Unknown
But then

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Unknown
of course, what we believe then has to kick in. And I think that's where, you know, we then we're able to make that choice, to be truly compassionate. Because compassion in my understanding, is not to end suffering, but it's to enter into suffering with another. That's really what the word means. Passion and even suffering and hope means to be with.

00:02:42:02 - 00:02:54:15
Unknown
So it was more than, I suppose, an invitation to journey with someone for however long their life would be. And in doing that, we

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Unknown
were able to experience something so wonderful, even though it was really hard, something that was noble and good. His short life was noble and good and brought so much joy and life to people.

00:03:10:13 - 00:03:31:08
Unknown
And that's because we we entered into the suffering with him as opposed to, yeah, we were in the race with him. We were not afraid of facing what could come. We were afraid we were okay. But I think but yeah, I think that's what courage is, though. You do it when you're afraid. Like, that's what I meant by that.

00:03:31:08 - 00:03:57:03
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. Like you just have to face it. And I think, I think it would have been really hard. Is just the unknowing to be faced with this situation. So to take us through it. You you were pregnant with Remi? And it was actually at the 20 week scan that this bombshell was dropped on you. Yeah. At that point, they can tell you it could look like this, it could look like that, but they can't tell you with certainty.

00:03:57:03 - 00:04:23:01
Unknown
And so there's this big cloud of unknowing around me, of your child. What was that like? It was hard. So we had that initial scan and we had to go to another hospital to then get a more specific scan and I felt I suddenly felt like I had this ticking time bomb inside of me. And it was the way that they had talked about this baby like, oh, you know, if he survives till the next scan, then we can give intervention.

00:04:23:01 - 00:04:45:18
Unknown
And I started to think, oh, is he going to pass away before we can intervene? And what what rights does this child have for medical intervention? And that's kind of when we learned to general rule that a baby must be of a certain weight before we can do that emergency caesarean to save their life as well. And how much weight, how how big was Remi at that point?

00:04:45:18 - 00:05:06:14
Unknown
According to the scan, he was 400. So this was the next scan we did at 24 weeks. He was 430g. But we found out later when he was born, he was actually 390g when that extra. Yes, he was tiny. He was done the procedure at all. If he was, if he hadn't come up. So it's actually really fortunate that.

00:05:06:17 - 00:05:29:05
Unknown
Yeah. Looking like he was weighing more then. Yeah. Yeah. He really was. Yeah. It's so arbitrary isn't it. Yeah. It's because I've had another mother reach out to me whose child I think was 22 weeks. I hope I'm not getting that wrong, but 22 weeks. And the child was denied any medical care. I think this was in New South Wales.

00:05:29:07 - 00:05:49:14
Unknown
And so she carried her baby until he passed. But, you know, one week later and they would have done lifesaving interventions. Yeah. And that child could leave in one of the influencers I follow, Leah DeRose. She's oh yeah. Yeah, she's saving some for now from America, I think. And her baby was born at 22 weeks and is now thriving in that time.

00:05:49:14 - 00:06:09:00
Unknown
And I've watched that journey on social media. It's so arbitrary, isn't it? And I think the irony for me and I was discussed, I was discussing with another friend of mine once about it. She's a nurse, and she was sort of pointing out, well, like at the time of viability is like different or the age viability is different to their actual size.

00:06:09:00 - 00:06:24:24
Unknown
And so because I was sort of arguing, well, yes, he was over the age of viability, but he was the size of an 18 week. And she's like, well, that doesn't matter. And I'm like, well, according to what? Like if that's his physical size, his physical dimensions because of his restriction, it'll be so we don't understand all the ins and outs.

00:06:24:24 - 00:06:58:09
Unknown
We're not medical professionals, but it just seems so strange that there are children larger than Remi who aren't medically viable. Like, does then my takeaway from that is that he the only thing that made him viable or able to go for his decision was his age. Yeah, no, his health or anything. So yeah. And yeah, coming back to what you were saying about the numbers like that really is what it felt like when we kept kind of having, you know, a new doctor come and talk with us when we were saying we wanted birth him.

00:06:58:09 - 00:07:20:07
Unknown
And that's our decision we kept having. They I think they just really wanted us to know what we were getting into to help us really understand, because in the way they kept pitching it, it's about having as much control as you can in the situation. But if anything, it felt like the the thing that made more sense to do was to kind of let go of control, because there was nothing that we could control about that situation.

00:07:20:07 - 00:07:46:05
Unknown
We just really had to give in to what was going on. And I suppose each day, even after he was born, it was very much like, okay, like what's happening today? Like, yeah. So there's an acronym that gets bandied around to justify abortion of a very sick babies TFM. But it's actually used to justify abortion of any kind up until birth termination for medical reasons.

00:07:46:05 - 00:08:07:15
Unknown
T fmr u of FMA. And what was that like for you and what was your response? To be completely honest, it the way that it had been framed. To me personally, I felt like abortion was now a rational choice. It was kind of it wasn't sold to me. Like we agree, they weren't pushing it on us. They were kind of saying, here are your options.

00:08:07:15 - 00:08:29:23
Unknown
You were God. You decide what happens. But obviously what we wanted was a healthy baby. So having to choose between, you know, three options that none of which were particularly appealing, but the kind of drawcard of the abortion was, you'll be able to fall pregnant again sooner. You'll be able to have less of a scar.

00:08:29:23 - 00:08:37:04
Unknown
less chance of fertility issues down the line, because, essentially, to save Remy's life, it wouldn't be a normal caesarean.

00:08:37:04 - 00:08:56:24
Unknown
It would be a vertical incision in order to get him out and technicalities, because he was so premature, he hadn't even risen to like that engaged position or whatever in the uterus. And so it meant we were told that we might not be able to have any more children as well. Like if the thing, if things didn't go right in the procedure.

00:08:56:24 - 00:09:13:17
Unknown
So we were also choosing potentially in saving his life, having no children because we would might not be able to have any more and then he might die. Yeah. And that was like they kind of said, yeah, if you're going to have one kid, don't have Remi. Like that was the whole thing. They didn't say it like that.

00:09:13:17 - 00:09:34:04
Unknown
But they're kind of saying, what about next pregnancy like, but I said, I don't know if I'll fall pregnant again. There's a lot that goes into falling pregnant. We did actually conceive, but you just don't know, like I don't I didn't go through my life expecting children or planning the children, but we were open and in my framework of understanding it, that life was a gift given to me.

00:09:34:04 - 00:09:58:19
Unknown
And it was now my job, our job to steward this life, whatever that meant. And it meant that we'd do what's also scientifically reasonable as well. But for me, that could never be ending that life. Specifically. It could. Yeah. Not the intention of it. It's that utilitarian framework using it in order to have the possibility of having another baby, your little perfect baby.

00:09:58:19 - 00:10:30:08
Unknown
He's not unhealthy or sick or disabled. We kill this one now. Yeah. And that really sums it up and would have been for us, because now, even though he died, we've gained so many things of blessings and and love and community from choosing to give birth to him like just even the people that rallied around us alone was like, amazing that people would be willing to be there for us.

00:10:30:08 - 00:10:31:24
Unknown
because we we prayed

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Unknown
in an online format with him every day, we invited people to come into his life.

00:10:35:20 - 00:10:59:06
Unknown
I think for me, it was a way of just getting him connection to the outside world, because, you know, that's what ended up being he never was able to leave the, the Nikki's. So he that was the only way we could connect him with other people. But it meant that so many people, even who we had never met from like overseas, were rallying behind him and joining in in this community of prayer.

00:10:59:08 - 00:11:28:12
Unknown
And it became something beautiful, even even in his death, that there was this community of people who had known and loved Remy and I think some people would say that it's all well and good for you guys to choose to give birth to Remy and to then pray with him. But if you're not Christian or a person of faith, then it's your choice and you should be able to go for that abortion.

00:11:28:14 - 00:11:31:24
Unknown
What would be your response to someone like that? I just think

00:11:31:24 - 00:11:47:02
Unknown
we didn't have the typical success story, right? Or maybe the success story would be we had the baby. He went on to become the world's greatest pope and politician and superstar basketballer, but in his death was proof that you

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Unknown
You don't have to do things and provide in order to earn your right to be loved.

00:11:51:20 - 00:11:56:10
Unknown
And I think a lot of people struggle with knowing that they are loved and

00:11:56:10 - 00:12:16:11
Unknown
this open conversations with our friends. So we've had friends that have actually said, look, I don't think I'd be worthy to raise this child if they had a disability. You know, due to the medications I'm on or due to, the reality of this particular situation, or they'll feel like they don't have the support or they're not qualified to be a good mother.

00:12:16:11 - 00:12:30:18
Unknown
So we've come to learn, actually, some really sad scenarios where people have had to have abortions or they felt that they had to because that was meant to be their way out, their way to freedom and their way to moving on. But

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Unknown
abortion to me is almost like, you're admitting I don't have the support. I can't do this. I'm not worthy. And

00:12:39:12 - 00:12:50:24
Unknown
it's not like it's not the truth. That's it. It's not the truth. Yeah, and that would be my thought as well. Like, when it comes to people who aren't of faith, the reality is, is that Remy brought

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Unknown
love and joy to people who didn't have faith.

00:12:53:16 - 00:13:11:12
Unknown
so it didn't matter whether they prayed or not. Like the people, there were people who were rooting behind him because they didn't pray and but and he won't. People of faith, but still were impacted by his life. So I think the truth stands as you, as you were saying that each life possesses some value in itself that can be brought to people.

00:13:11:12 - 00:13:33:06
Unknown
It wasn't us praying with him or us choosing to birth him that brought this, value that he brought. It was just him because of who he he is, even being a sick child. That elicited love out of people because that's what it that's what happens to you. I just yourself, like you elicit love out of people

00:13:33:06 - 00:13:42:19
Unknown
just going back to the abortion, it's not neutral. And I think we have to be brave in saying that it's not a neutral. I think people are saying, oh, it could be right for you, but wrong for someone else.

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Unknown
But I just think, it's involving that human being that has value already. So how do we then say

00:13:51:16 - 00:14:02:00
Unknown
It just wouldn't make sense to say that all your abortion was okay. And I think what I'm not saying is okay, though. And all those circumstances surrounding what leads up to that. But it was not okay.

00:14:02:00 - 00:14:23:14
Unknown
That baby was sick. It was not okay that, you know, there are mothers that feel unsupported. But even in my own situation, yeah, there was a lot that was not okay about what was happening. And saying no to the abortion doesn't mean that I'm now accepting all of those circumstances to I'm still acknowledging the, you know, the negative forces that took place.

00:14:23:14 - 00:14:48:10
Unknown
You know, how is it that a child could be sick? Like, what kind of a world do we live in that babies are born sick? Like Remy hadn't done anything wrong. Like the implication that removing the child through abortion would make things easier is a lie, too, because we were actually able to grieve and heal from the whole process because we knew who he was.

00:14:48:24 - 00:14:56:08
Unknown
And we experienced him. But I think if you don't meet the child and you don't know them like it

00:14:56:08 - 00:15:13:18
Unknown
I just suspect that there's an emptiness there. There's a, a something that feels missing, that you can't then recognize and acknowledge his life. And I think there's a dead baby either way. Yeah. In one way, involves honoring a life and witnessing a noble womb.

00:15:13:20 - 00:15:33:09
Unknown
And that was something that really struck me, because before this point, I didn't want to be this. It's my own healing. Obviously, I've grown, but I didn't want to be associated with honor. It was more than a miscarriage. I had more than a stillbirth. I had a child that lived. But I realized I fell into that trap. Is this child needs to live in order for me to acknowledge his life.

00:15:33:09 - 00:15:58:11
Unknown
And I think it's a he was the same child that when I carried him from when we first saw that pregnancy test positive, there he was like, that was when he appeared on the scene. And that was when my not obligation, but it's my joyful responsibility to his life appeared. So doing that abortion would just.

00:15:58:11 - 00:16:00:15
Unknown
would just take that responsibility.

00:16:00:15 - 00:16:26:01
Unknown
Yeah. That's it. I owed it to him. Yeah, yeah. Well, you terrified going into the emergency C-section. It was terrifying. And all the stuff, like all 30 or 40 of them in the operating theater, they were. You could feel the energy. It was palpable. But it was just incredibly glorious, joyful when this child was born like. And yeah, it was for me.

00:16:26:01 - 00:16:47:06
Unknown
I said, he's alive like that. That was the first question, you know? And, I was shaking even before the whatever the spinal kicks in and causes shaking anyway. But I was terrified beforehand and the way things just unfolded. And he was born at exactly 1111 and turns out a friend actually knew the person that was operating on us.

00:16:47:06 - 00:17:05:17
Unknown
And there was just so much that came together. There's no photograph of this, but he had actually come out in his amniotic sac like, oh, it wasn't broken, which is also a really rare, auspicious, beautiful birth. Yeah. And exactly at 1111, I used to make a wish on a star, you know, when I was a teenager, at exactly that time.

00:17:05:17 - 00:17:32:18
Unknown
And wished for, you know, stupid things. But this was like, now I know, like, he's my star now, and that's. Yeah, it's just it's just been the best. And I, you know, sometimes you're like, oh, it's a tragedy. His life is tragedy. I said, no, his life was not the tragedy. Like that was the joyful part. Sure, the means of his death is tragic that he had a a hard life, but he was surrounded by love and we did not leave his side.

00:17:32:18 - 00:17:53:01
Unknown
He was. He had medical. They fell in love with him. They were cheering for him. They, you know, the tears were real, you know, like everyone was crying when he passed away. It wasn't just us. And I knew that they loved him like I loved him. Really like those nurses round the clock. So there was so many opportunities to love in that.

00:17:53:06 - 00:18:19:07
Unknown
And we would have missed out big time. Like, and now we can just move on from it. It's not the like, I don't feel like it took it. Of course it takes time to feel like, yeah. How many years has it been since 22.5. Yeah. But it sounds like when I speak to you, there is just so much joy and the amount of losing a child, because that is traumatic.

00:18:19:12 - 00:18:40:21
Unknown
It is. Yeah, but I can say that there's so much grace and healing for you both in the way that you speak about him. And you've since welcomed another child into the world. So all of that doomsday prediction, that's how to have a baby. No. You've been able to have Felicity. Yeah. Was it very scary having Felicity knowing what had happened to me?

00:18:40:21 - 00:18:59:05
Unknown
I was so confident. Sorry. You wanted to say something? Well, I just think it's another blessing. Any kind of go. Well, thank goodness we gave birth to Remi. Because. Because of what had happened and how crazy the whole circumstance of the pregnancy was. And no one really knew what was going on with why Remi was born that way.

00:18:59:05 - 00:19:26:03
Unknown
But it meant they were going to take every precaution medically. Yeah, pregnancy medically. But if we hadn't had given birth to Remi, we may have had a couple more pregnancies. Very similar thing may have occurred before there was intervention. Yeah. Whereas now, because we had such a severe case, yes. We would highlight. Yeah. And I was given medication to take like, you know, for certain, but like it could very well be that Remy's life is exactly why I like him giving his life.

00:19:26:03 - 00:19:46:06
Unknown
His wife Felicity was able to. Yeah. And we have new information. Yeah. Like. Yeah. And so we were very closely monitored with that pregnancy and you know, there was just a lot there. But, to be completely honest, I had a very confident pregnancy. I was I felt I, I honestly just said, look, the most catastrophic thing happened.

00:19:46:06 - 00:20:05:02
Unknown
The child has died and we survived. So this child, I will save it every moment with her or him. I didn't know again. We just left to the surprise and yeah, no, I enjoyed the time I had with her while she was in my belly. Like that was I just realized, oh, I've got to count this time as well, because we don't know.

00:20:05:04 - 00:20:23:03
Unknown
But it was that place of honestly, it was just confidence then, and I knew it could go either way when she was born. I have to admit, I was a bit hyper vigilant. But that's still a bit sometimes. Sometimes? Yeah. It was not like, you see, breathing. Yeah. And there's a level of normal, like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:20:23:04 - 00:20:51:18
Unknown
So there's a level of normal. Well times go. Yeah. Listen, that's. Hello. Yeah, yeah. That's you. And then you see a little movie. Oh yes. That's it. Oh you just struggling. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah that's it. That's particularly I think you know when you've got that first child sleeping next to your bed. But can I ask you, I think if you've had an abortion, you might not ever tell your subsequent children about that child who you aborted.

00:20:51:20 - 00:21:11:05
Unknown
Felicity, will you tell Felicity about Remi? Absolutely. She already knows about it. Yeah, because this really beautiful thing happens. The other day. My mum has a picture of my grandmother, who just passed away earlier this year, and Remi, just on a little, like, thing at home, and we showed her the picture and straight away she's, like reaching for him and smiling.

00:21:11:07 - 00:21:32:15
Unknown
And, you know, it's because of what we believe. We, you know, really do believe he is with God. But we suspicious that Felicity has seen him before, just the way that she looks in the room. And people always say that about babies. But it was odd that she just leapt at a photograph of her brother. It was. Yeah, really lovely.

00:21:32:15 - 00:21:56:13
Unknown
And she's probably heard him speak about Remi. Yeah, she's smart sometimes she smiles and it's, It is a sadness to to, you know, she'll grow and find out that there was a brother that she didn't meet and couldn't meet. But I think that will be hopefully, part of her legacy, too, that she can know that she had a brother who was so brave and he was a real, you know, soldier warrior.

00:21:56:18 - 00:22:21:15
Unknown
Yeah. She has family members who. Yeah, I've met her, like, more than just us. Like, I think that's also like, he still feels like part of the family. Still include him in the little Christmas card series. Yeah, and things like that. Because he was your son? Absolutely. Yeah. First, and I do think that we're so quick to just try and eradicate all kind of suffering or pain.

00:22:21:15 - 00:22:41:11
Unknown
We we run away from it. I, I was born in this like my father died when I was five and, you know, raised by a single mum. And there was a whole lot of challenges associated with that. And people think I'll have traumatic. That must have been. But I think you just learn through all of the suffering and the pain like it.

00:22:41:13 - 00:23:04:24
Unknown
It's not like taking it away makes it any better or easier. It's it's confronting it. And I think when I hear your story, you you ran head on into it. You didn't want to push it over there because obviously the abortion would have been quicker. Yeah. But, you know, you would never have met Remi and had the time.

00:23:04:24 - 00:23:30:02
Unknown
Can you tell me after the birth how long Remi lived for? And what was that time period like 53 days or almost seven weeks? Wow. And I think he would leave that. No, he was a record breaker. And to this day, doctors like he's a once in a lifetime event. Like he is truly. And I think that also kind of showed he had a will to live, even though he wasn't going to make it.

00:23:30:04 - 00:23:49:06
Unknown
He did have a will to live. And I guess having the opportunity to I mean, it was painful even it took us. It wasn't until like a week before I think we could hold him or have to wait ten days. And then it was another 22 days before I held him after that. Yeah, yeah. So I was counting the moments I could hold him.

00:23:49:08 - 00:24:09:15
Unknown
Yeah. It is so challenging to just be so close and so far at the same time. But we got to witness him doing things that babies do in the uterus. Like opening his eyes for the first time. Like, you know, it was such a miracle to see, first of all, how much medical equipment is required just to replicate, like the female body just for.

00:24:09:21 - 00:24:29:13
Unknown
And it doesn't even do a good job, like comparatively. Yeah. And then on top of that, just to witness, you know, this, this growing child because now he was able to grow. Yes, unhealthily. But he was then showing these signs of development that happening in the womb. And you just really get a sense of the beauty of the mystery of life when you when you're watching him.

00:24:30:21 - 00:24:48:15
Unknown
And, and the marvels of science and medicine, what people can do and how he can adapt. There was he had a little physio to help him with these little hands that were getting jammed in certain positions, and it was fantastic. He had a dietician and it was just a whole like a really holistic way of living.

00:24:48:15 - 00:25:08:12
Unknown
You know, he thought about all of these things, a little bit of caffeine every day. So like, yeah, he it was like it was holding him for the first time. What was absolutely incredible. Yeah, I just it was sort of a bit Covid era too. So, you know, there were masks and things and he just went on my chest and I instantly started crying.

00:25:08:15 - 00:25:27:08
Unknown
And the nurse was like, hold still, you can't move too much. Like he's he's cool to go. He was quite funny. It just healed it. Yeah. It's in my heart to hold him like it was just so. Yeah, it was a really good moment to do that. And I didn't get as many times, so I was really.

00:25:27:11 - 00:25:49:00
Unknown
You got three cuddles and I got four. Yeah. You got there. The last one was pretty traumatic. So we had to resuscitate him a few times anyway. But do you think. So sorry. That's okay. It's quite heavy isn't it. Yeah. So yeah. He held him three times. He held him four times.

00:25:49:02 - 00:26:11:23
Unknown
Do you think he knew you were his mum and dad? Absolutely. He. Now that I've seen a baby that's developing at a normal pace, I guess like Felicity in the way she can. It took her a while before she could look at us in the eyes. But Remi did that. I remember he stared at me and we had this eye contact and he definitely knew who we were.

00:26:11:23 - 00:26:34:22
Unknown
And even the nurses commented, like, sometimes they'd call us in the middle of the night because there's no way for you to stay at the hospital bedside like there's an emergency bed you can sometimes stay. And so it was wonderful. But, they called us in the middle of the night, you know, 2 a.m.. So we rushed into the hospital and his vital signs as soon as we started praying with him, just being there, talking to him, they improved.

00:26:34:24 - 00:26:55:24
Unknown
And the nurses just said, yeah, he just needed his parents, like. And that's, you know, that's a practical like we didn't make that up. Yeah. When we were there. Yeah. He knew when we were around he knew our voice like sing to him as well like a lot. So you know you don't really know. But I don't know I feel like as a parent you kind of know you just

00:26:55:24 - 00:26:57:18
Unknown
you just have the connection there.

00:26:57:21 - 00:27:18:07
Unknown
Before I was a parent, I just didn't understand or believe that there was some weird connection that you have. But you there is, there is, you know. Yes, yes, yes. But I think what breaks my heart is that, there are all of these babies like Remy. Yeah. You never get that because they do just get abandoned, you know?

00:27:18:07 - 00:27:37:12
Unknown
They just. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, let's, they're in the place where they're safest. And then they were injected with potassium chloride because typically at 24, 25 weeks, that is the way the abortion happened. And that injection of potassium chloride is into their heart. Yeah. And then they just never get that feeling of being with their mum and dad.

00:27:38:15 - 00:27:59:07
Unknown
Do you ever does it do you ever think about that or do you, as I've met other women actually, that have had abortions and I don't I don't even feel like it's the women that have abortions. I'm sorry. It's it's the circumstances that it's just a law society and the medical profession. So has this view that if there's something wrong, let's go to abortion.

00:27:59:07 - 00:28:20:08
Unknown
Yeah. And I meet them and it's it's just really hard because it's it's so common like every like literally everyone that it it wasn't a conversation I knew. But just recently, having gone through this experience and now sharing and being more open about it, that's when so many people in my life have come forward and

00:28:20:08 - 00:28:29:12
Unknown
deep down, I think people know and acknowledge that there is a life, and it's just that life gets so hard on the outside.

00:28:29:14 - 00:28:52:02
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, it looks like that was the fix, right? And people regret it. Coming back to what you said earlier about people needing to feel that they're loved, I think, that's in our current culture, there's a distance and removal of people from each other as well. We couldn't have done what we did without the people in our community and our families supporting us.

00:28:52:04 - 00:29:16:17
Unknown
It was really challenging, but like, that's part of what we are trying to do now is we're trying to be people that can be present. We want to be the village. Yeah, that situation, because really part of the solution, I think, to end abortion is actually just creating communities of deeper loads. But you can't create communities of deep love if you have an attitude of utilitarianism towards people too.

00:29:16:17 - 00:29:35:24
Unknown
And that goes for the elderly. It goes to sick people, people with Down's syndrome, like, you know, pro-life is more than just in a way. Could I push back? Yeah. What about people who might say you were selfish, that you forced Remi to suffer for 50 years? Yeah, and there's no doubt some of the medical staff probably had that feeling.

00:29:36:19 - 00:29:44:23
Unknown
There are different ethics that surround end of life care and also. But I really believe we were so measured in our approach as well.

00:29:44:23 - 00:29:49:13
Unknown
I suppose the, the language of like, what is it?

00:29:50:14 - 00:30:22:14
Unknown
Extraordinary means of care and I guess for Remi, for pretty much basic his life, it was pretty extraordinary. There was a period when it was looked like he was improving and then maybe longer where he wasn't. And, I just don't. Know if it's fair to say that a person's life is their own, either. The mantra maybe of the probation side is my body, my choice.

00:30:22:14 - 00:30:47:17
Unknown
But our mantra instead is my body for you. Because really, like, we suffered like we did suffer with him. It wasn't like we went. We were there watching him. Yeah. So should we have been killed? Because we were then in extreme stress and our stress. Yeah. Like it's there's suffering would have occurred in this situation regardless of whether we had an abortion or not.

00:30:47:17 - 00:31:17:20
Unknown
So but then to choose to enter into it, to accept it and to let it shape and transform us is how we've been able to heal. And and even, you know, have the grace of not having to like we were ready to end life support and getting to that point. But we didn't have to because, you know, Remy went just through a normal procedure of like, cars that he would have, he had reached that point and it just was the exact right moment.

00:31:17:22 - 00:31:35:13
Unknown
It it my, my, my parents were there. Your parents were there. We were able to grieve together. His passing, all these other things just sort of like made it so peaceful and lovely. And you know what? What more stood out?

00:31:35:13 - 00:31:46:19
Unknown
Our taxes, our money, these healthcare things go to you then to like, of course, to heal people, but like to provide like a beautiful way of death to people like.

00:31:46:21 - 00:32:08:10
Unknown
I don't think that speeding things up always makes it. Yeah. Better. I think he said it really well when you said Remy would have suffered either way, but this way he didn't suffer alone. That's parents. We were there at that suffering. Yeah. And you know, I think that I know when I'm in pain, having someone with me is transformative.

00:32:08:12 - 00:32:31:12
Unknown
So for little Remy, having his mum and dad by his side would have been so profoundly comforting. I think, it must be hurtful sometimes for you guys to see the commentary online and to see how little regard is given to babies who are profoundly disabled or sick. Yeah. There was one particular comment that did upset me.

00:32:31:12 - 00:32:51:05
Unknown
It was it was actually directed at me personally to be like, oh, I just hope you I hope you get pregnant. And it's a complicated pregnancy and that you die as a result. And I just laughed. And I was also hurt because I'm like, we were that we literally are that textbook case of, here's a complicated pregnancy. If the baby remains, there could be other, implications for us.

00:32:51:05 - 00:33:14:08
Unknown
But we also must save his love. You know, we were literally that case, and this person was still quite adamant that. Oh, no, you you need to. You haven't been there. You can't speak for this. And it's. Yeah. And the only bothers me to a point, like I think when people say, yeah, but my main gut reaction is usually this person just probably needs a hug.

00:33:14:10 - 00:33:41:08
Unknown
So I'm like, that's what I was meaning. If I'm like, it's our culture. Like we actually just kind of have to love better. Yeah, one. And it's one heart and mind at a time because every, every person has a different story as to why they think that is the solution. And it's not taking like we had a lot of people saying, you know, I hope you get raped and you're in this difficult situation and, you know, there's been haters out there.

00:33:41:08 - 00:33:43:23
Unknown
But the concept is that

00:33:43:23 - 00:34:00:10
Unknown
we are connected as humanity. It doesn't matter what particular kind of suffering we've had, but it it hurts all of us when we are hurt. And that's. Yeah, that's kind of and I think us losing Remi and going through that has actually impacted other people. And yeah, it's worth sharing, right?

00:34:00:10 - 00:34:31:04
Unknown
Yeah. But after him passing, we were invited to go on a retreat for infertile couples. Which was new, like it hadn't. It was happened before, but we were invited not necessarily be infertile, but because the people who organize it nuance and they knew that we were suffering and we just maybe needed something in his time. And it was really humbling to be part of of this group and to see the suffering of others suffering that, you know, at that point, we didn't know whether we could have another kid or not.

00:34:31:04 - 00:34:50:22
Unknown
But it was, you know, possible that we could have and we did. But even just to recognize that, you know, our own journey was different to these other people's journey, they weren't even able to conceive. And there's so much pain there. But that I feel like there's this weird cultural life thing where it's like, oh, you don't understand my suffering.

00:34:50:22 - 00:35:05:07
Unknown
And maybe like, that's what I used to do a lot as well. I used to when I had suffering, if it wasn't the same and someone was trying to empathize, I'd be like, well, you don't understand because you don't understand my particular thing and I and to some level, yeah, I can't understand what it means to be infertile.

00:35:05:13 - 00:35:36:22
Unknown
But I also was saying, recognizing that these people can also understand that we have have pain to in their pain and vice versa. And I actually experienced the sense of unity, even though it was different, because I was letting go of my own pride that actually like, no, like, you know, some people had had said some things to me that about their own miscarriages certainly after always about that made me feel upset and angry because I know that's not the same situation, but I think that was just me being hurt and not willing to be open.

00:35:36:22 - 00:35:54:12
Unknown
But once I was more open, then I could see, actually, we can we can unite with each other, you know, a lot of different experiences. It doesn't have to be the exact same, which I think is another isolating tactic. Often, side uses is, well, you don't know this woman's story. It's like no one knows this woman's story about this woman.

00:35:54:15 - 00:36:14:05
Unknown
Like it's not possible, but we can unite. Yeah. Stories. And that's where the healing and I think, you know, there's kind of it's a sad universal. But I'm pretty sure in every culture everyone would agree that the death of a child is tragic. And that includes the children that have been aborted. And they were children like they weren't.

00:36:14:07 - 00:36:34:20
Unknown
They were someone's child. And so I my heart really does go out to people that have had abortions and families and couples that have had abortion. It's not just the women, it's because they're actually carrying the same grief that we carry with Remi. They've lost children and whether we want to acknowledge that or not is another story, but it's yeah, it's universal.

00:36:35:01 - 00:36:36:00
Unknown
Yeah.

00:36:36:00 - 00:36:53:19
Unknown
Thank you so much to both of you for coming in and sharing Remy's story. Remy is just such a gift to all of us, because I think that his life will actually save countless lives. Because there'll be couples out there watching the two of you and hearing this and realizing that abortion may seem like a quick fix.

00:36:53:19 - 00:37:06:15
Unknown
But ultimately, what you chose was the more fulfilling, joy filled path that's led to peace and healing for you as a family. So thank you for your courage and your witness. Thanks. Thanks to